Q. Based on your research (biblically), how did The Angel physically wrestle with Jacob at Manhanaim if The Angel did not “take on” the “nature” or “form” of whatever that “manifestation” was?
For the record, I do not look at Theophanies/Christophanies as a Person of the Triune God (compound Unity) “being” some thing other than God.
Thanks for the question. The issue isn’t “gyrations” so much as being precise with categories.
To be clear, the wrestling at Peniel requires no assumption of a creaturely nature.
A manifestation is God making Himself perceptible through created means for a moment in time. The created medium bears the creaturely properties, but God does not. Just as the burning bush really burned, and the pillar of cloud really moved, so the form that appeared to Jacob really wrestled. The creaturely effects happen in the created medium, not in God.
The mistake is thinking that for God to act through a manifestation, He must become or take on whatever the manifestation is.
The Bible has no problem presenting God acting through created media that He does not ontologically assume.
He speaks through a donkey without assuming donkey-nature.
He appears in fire without assuming fire-nature.
He descends in cloud without assuming cloud-nature.
He “wrestles” in a form without assuming creature-nature. The medium is created and the manifestation is real, but the Person revealing Himself does not change, acquire creaturely properties, or take on a created essence.
If “taking on” is ever used to mean anything more than a perceptible manifestation, then we’ve left the revelation and entered a full-blown incarnation.
No, I’m not saying the Angel was an illusion, or anything unreal. Jacob really wrestled with God, the question is how God made Himself present.
In every theophany, God reveals Himself through a created medium without becoming that medium. He appears in fire without becoming fire, in cloud without becoming cloud, and at Peniel He appears in a humanlike form without assuming a creaturely nature.
It’s a mystery, yes, but a biblical one. God was there, the form was real, but God did not change into what appeared.
Whole lotta gyrations to get to the conclusion!
Thanks for thinking it through.
Q. Based on your research (biblically), how did The Angel physically wrestle with Jacob at Manhanaim if The Angel did not “take on” the “nature” or “form” of whatever that “manifestation” was?
For the record, I do not look at Theophanies/Christophanies as a Person of the Triune God (compound Unity) “being” some thing other than God.
?
Thanks for the question. The issue isn’t “gyrations” so much as being precise with categories.
To be clear, the wrestling at Peniel requires no assumption of a creaturely nature.
A manifestation is God making Himself perceptible through created means for a moment in time. The created medium bears the creaturely properties, but God does not. Just as the burning bush really burned, and the pillar of cloud really moved, so the form that appeared to Jacob really wrestled. The creaturely effects happen in the created medium, not in God.
The mistake is thinking that for God to act through a manifestation, He must become or take on whatever the manifestation is.
The Bible has no problem presenting God acting through created media that He does not ontologically assume.
He speaks through a donkey without assuming donkey-nature.
He appears in fire without assuming fire-nature.
He descends in cloud without assuming cloud-nature.
He “wrestles” in a form without assuming creature-nature. The medium is created and the manifestation is real, but the Person revealing Himself does not change, acquire creaturely properties, or take on a created essence.
If “taking on” is ever used to mean anything more than a perceptible manifestation, then we’ve left the revelation and entered a full-blown incarnation.
Mind blowing. Thx.
To be clear: You are not indicating that The Angrl who wrestled with Jacob was some sort of AI manipulated by YHWH.
Right?
So, I still have a question mark: Did Jacob wrestle with God (and prevail), or was he engaging an avatar (for lack of a better descriptor)?
No, I’m not saying the Angel was an illusion, or anything unreal. Jacob really wrestled with God, the question is how God made Himself present.
In every theophany, God reveals Himself through a created medium without becoming that medium. He appears in fire without becoming fire, in cloud without becoming cloud, and at Peniel He appears in a humanlike form without assuming a creaturely nature.
It’s a mystery, yes, but a biblical one. God was there, the form was real, but God did not change into what appeared.